tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post4765492671338929104..comments2013-04-28T14:44:48.079+02:00Comments on JEREMY DUNS: Highway Robbery: The Mask of Knowing in Assassin of SecretsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-88837833625631527722011-12-01T18:08:59.710+01:002011-12-01T18:08:59.710+01:00I'm assuming you've seen already, but if n...I'm assuming you've seen already, but if not:<br /><br />http://www.salon.com/2011/12/01/a_plagiarists_lame_excuse_addiction_made_me_do_it/singleton/Jim Donahuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04140325442403671800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-18133151929642759212011-11-30T23:18:11.128+01:002011-11-30T23:18:11.128+01:00Larry, again, no need to apologize or worry in any...Larry, again, no need to apologize or worry in any way, and thanks for reading the original post. And you're no bozo. But... I think you're changing your points here, aren't you? You wrote above:<br /><br />'From a software engineering and retrieval standpoint, the problem is simplified for genre books--where it is probably most needed.'<br /><br />I'll just make two points. Firstly, 'genre books' statistically is surely absolutely mammoth, encompassing everything from crime to science fiction to espionage to romance and much more besides. If you're talking about cutting down the sheer number of books to run through software, this seems a very odd point to make. Surely 'cookery books by celebrities' would be statistically a lot easier to detect plagiarism in than 'genre fiction'!<br /><br />Secondly, I still don't see why the software 'is probably most needed' in genre fiction. Can you explain?Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-7898046417320436322011-11-30T23:11:16.631+01:002011-11-30T23:11:16.631+01:00Jeremy, I read your essay when you first posted it...Jeremy, I read your essay when you first posted it; perhaps I should read it again if I can make the time. It must be frustrating to think you have already covered something when some bozo like me comes along and says something that looks like he didn't realize the matter was settled. Sorry.<br /><br />But please, I was only referencing technical issues, not making a philosophical point about the diversity or narrowness or the relative value or legitimacy of spy fiction. In an absolute sense, it might be hard to define exactly what books fall in the subset 'spy fiction'--there will be always be boundary cases that are ambiguous and arguments over whether a particular case is 'real' spy fiction, but from a technological standpoint those issues are not highly important. In simple terms, my statement amounts to: Not all published fiction is spy fiction, therefore searching for plagiarism within spy fiction is easier and faster. That's all. But, please, this was never intended to be more than just an aside about the technical feasibility of semi-automating checking for plagiarism. I can assure you that even for all published works it is rapidly becoming far more feasible than one might think.<br /><br />We really seem to be talking past each other, and I am very sorry for that. When I wrote 'but that does not mean there are more sinners.' I was not implying that you said that or held that position, only trying to make clear my point (which obviously I failed at).<br /><br />I haven't responded to your examples because I have no quarrel with them and nothing to add. It is quite possible that we are in violent agreement but just do not recognize it. :-)<br /><br />--Larry Constantine (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lior-Samson/e/B004KDPO9A/" rel="nofollow">Lior Samson</a>Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244119294993819031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-67006394959047623382011-11-30T22:48:00.765+01:002011-11-30T22:48:00.765+01:00Larry, no need to apologize! I'm happy to have...Larry, no need to apologize! I'm happy to have the discussion. But really, I think it would help it if you read my essay above, Highway Robbery: The Mask of Knowing in Assassin of Secrets. Just scroll up. :) Because I have addressed several of these points there, I think.<br /><br />You write that spy fiction is a 'well-defined genre' and that as a result 'the corpus to be searched is a subset of the entire published body and it becomes easier to extract patterns and define an inference engine to recognize probable cases of plagiarism. It's just a matter of statistics.'<br /><br />First of all, I don't think spy fiction is a well-defined genre. It's enormously varied. For example, is The Secret Agent by Conrad spy fiction? Ashenden by Maugham? If you tried to find similarities between Tunc by Lawrence Durrell, Cockpit by Jerzy Kosinski, The Russia House by John le Carré, Declare by Tim Powers and The Spy Who Loved Me by Ian Fleming, I think you would struggle, mightily. There are spy novels that blend conventions from literary fiction, science fiction, crime, romance - thousands on thousands of combinations.<br /><br />And this applies to all genres. Why do you think the spy fiction genre is more clearly defined than any other? I don't see why it would be, but I'd be interested to hear if you have a concrete way of looking at that.<br /><br />'As to whether there is more or less plagiarism in genre fiction than literary fiction, I really don't know. All either of us could do is speculate. The tropes of genre fiction certainly constitute a temptation, but that does not mean there are more sinners.'<br /><br />I didn't say it did! You said that it was the other way round, remember? :) Your point was that 'the problem is simplified for genre books--where it is probably most needed'. I think the very lack of conventions in literary fiction mean it *could* be just as easier, if not easier, to do this with literary fiction. And I've given you several examples, none of which you've responded to.<br /><br />But again, I really hope you'll read my essay above. I find it slightly frustrating to have spent a lot of time trying to get down my thoughts on this in a coherent way, only to argue them through in the comments with someone who hasn't read my initial arguments. No hard feelings intended - it's just a bit silly to continue the conversation when you haven't read the start of it.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-41125572001427284592011-11-30T22:35:53.518+01:002011-11-30T22:35:53.518+01:00Jeremy, I think you misunderstand my position, but...Jeremy, I think you misunderstand my position, but that is probably my fault. I was too terse when I should have said more and verbose when I should have been more succinct. I plead not guilty when it comes to snobbery; I write genre fiction myself--techno-thrillers to be exact--and think that good writing can be found within the genre as much as anywhere else. Most of my reading for pleasure has also always been genre fiction of one sort or another.<br /><br />I was merely trying to make a fairly narrow technical point. For any well-defined genre, the corpus to be searched is a subset of the entire published body and it becomes easier to extract patterns and define an inference engine to recognize probable cases of plagiarism. It's just a matter of statistics. That's what I was alluding to.<br /><br />As to whether there is more or less plagiarism in genre fiction than literary fiction, I really don't know. All either of us could do is speculate. The tropes of genre fiction certainly constitute a temptation, but that does not mean there are more sinners.<br /><br />I am a fellow thriller writer, Jeremy, a friend. I am sorry if it appears we are on opposite sides here, because I don't think we are.<br /><br />--Larry Constantine (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lior-Samson/e/B004KDPO9A/" rel="nofollow">Lior Samson</a>)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244119294993819031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-73541702645672083422011-11-30T22:24:29.224+01:002011-11-30T22:24:29.224+01:00Larry, thanks for the reply. There's a lot I d...Larry, thanks for the reply. There's a lot I disagree with there, too, but let's start with this part:<br /><br />'It is now clear that Rowan did not intend his work to be a wry, post-modern, deconstructivist commentary on the genre, but intended or not, it is. It suggests that formulae can fly, even if from an unknown. Add the reading public, who are addicted to their formula fixes.'<br /><br />Well, no, it really doesn't. Assassin of Secrets used - in fact stole - dozens of conventions from the spy genre, but it is (or was) not a formulaic 'novel', partly because it contains so many of those conventions. If it suggests forulae can fly, how do you explain his Paris Review stories, which were literary fiction, stole from tons of different authors, and were only spotted when this all came about? Does that not say something, then, about the formulae of literary fiction? How about my other examples, which are full-length novels: The Raven's Bride by Lenore Hart and Wild Oats by Jacob Epstein. Both literary novels.<br /><br />There's a lot more I could say but perhaps I could, very gently and in the warmest possible terms, suggest you start by scrolling to the top of this screen and reading my essay in full, and carefully? Because you clearly haven't, and I think it might show you why the idea that this somehow shows up the spy genre doesn't fly.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-57332835039281022342011-11-30T22:08:26.287+01:002011-11-30T22:08:26.287+01:00Thanks, Jeremy, for taking the time for such a tho...Thanks, Jeremy, for taking the time for such a thoughtful and thorough reply. I got it. And your point based on your own expertise is well-taken. (You casually rattle off names of more authors than I even know!) So, if you don't believe there is enough responsibility to spread around, okay.<br /><br />I do think that there is a phenomenon in publishing as a whole today that, if not in part culpable for the Waddells and Rowans of the publishing process at least does not help the situation. It is now clear that Rowan did not intend his work to be a wry, post-modern, deconstructivist commentary on the genre, but intended or not, it is. It suggests that formulae can fly, even if from an unknown. Add the reading public, who are addicted to their formula fixes. Throw in independent publishing for lowering the standards while increasing the hunger for anything that tastes like the real thing. Heck, turn the spotlight on a generation that increasingly thinks the rules apply to everyone but themselves.<br /><br />Maybe editors and publishers and reviewers are just too eager to pounce on something that looks like a duck before smelling or tasting it carefully.<br /><br />Your main point, which I wholeheartedly endorse, is that Quentin is the one who plagiarized; it's his sin. But as one whose work (as an organizational consultant, a psychotherapist, and an author) has always been focused on what makes human beings tick and what accounts for how they behave with each other, I am also interested in the messier question of how this happened? How did it come about? What were all the contributing forces? And how is it that there now seems to have been so much of it? No drama is ever just one person's story. I think in systems, and it's the whole system that I am seeking to understand. That's far more interesting to me than the simpler matter of who is at fault.<br /><br />So, just to be clear for all those reading this who might want things spelled out in simple terms, I DO NOT blame the publishers or editors and I DO NOT excuse or condone Rowan's plagiarism. That does not stop me from looking beyond the obvious or wanting to understand more about the what and how of the problem.<br /><br />Thank you again for your role in helping to sort this all out.<br /><br />--Larry Constantine (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lior-Samson/e/B004KDPO9A/" rel="nofollow">Lior Samson</a>)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244119294993819031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-43973127032833065552011-11-30T21:31:10.091+01:002011-11-30T21:31:10.091+01:00'From a software engineering and retrieval sta...'From a software engineering and retrieval standpoint, the problem is simplified for genre books--where it is probably most needed.'<br /><br />Also disagree with this. Rowan had two short stories published in the Paris Review, which is the most prestigious literary journal in the world, and from the sheer number of authors he plagiarized for them it's clear they would have been stitched together in much the same way as Assassin of Secrets. The Raven's Bride by Lenore Hart is a literary novel. Jacob Epstein's Wild Oats was also a literary novel: it's known that Epstein plagiarized dozens of parts from Amis' The Rachel Papers, but if someone looked closer and also found passages lifted from other literary fiction, it would hardly be a surprise. As many literary novels don't have straightforward narrative plots and are often elusive, abstract and non-episodic, I suspect, if anything, it may in fact be significantly easier to plagiarize literary than genre fiction. I'd also argue, and indeed essentially do in the post above, that Assassin of Secrets worked because it strung together tropes of spy fiction in a recognizably post-modern way, ie it was more akin to literary fiction. <br /><br />Again, I've seen this position of yours echoed in newspaper articles and on blogs, but I think it is totally bogus, and often stems from snobbery about genre rather than any coherent logic.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-35441907707498599852011-11-30T21:12:33.739+01:002011-11-30T21:12:33.739+01:00It does, thanks - but I still disagree. :) It wasn...It does, thanks - but I still disagree. :) It wasn't discovered by knowledgable fans. It was discovered by *one* extremely knowledgable fan with a great memory. If you read the discussion on CommanderBond.net, you'll see several fans commented that that the excerpt read well, and was rather Bondish. Which, of course, it was. But one commenter, 'AMC Hornet', spotted it, and by his own admission later in the discussion his 'OC tendencies' paid off.<br /><br />You've missed all my points about this in my last reply, and indeed in the post above. Many have, I think partly because people like to see failure from big publishers. No? Honestly? <br />Let's put it in context again, for clarity. I'm a very knowledgeable James Bond fan. That's not a boast - in some circles the opposite! - but fact. I've read all of Ian Fleming's books. A lot of Bond fans haven't. I've also read lots of Fleming's work that is barely known: for example, I own the Kemsley Manual of Journalism. I've watched all the Bond films, unearthed a screenplay of The Diamond Smugglers by Jon Cleary, another of Casino Royale written by Ben Hecht, found draft pages of an unpublished Bond novel, interviewed John Gardner and Raymond Benson, and watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate... You get the idea, I hope. I'm not Fellow of Bond Studies at Cambridge, but I think it would be hard to argue I'm not a knowledgeable Bond fan. I’m also a huge Quiller fan. I've read all 19 of Adam Hall's Quiller novels, some of them a few times, and have done plenty of research into them, too. (I also recommended these novels to Quentin Rowan.) I'm also widely read in the spy genre, and have written about it at length both on this blog and in the press, and am a published spy novelist, writing a series of thrillers set in the Cold War. <br /><br />I didn't spot this. <br /><br />In hindsight, it’s rather easy to say it should have been spotted. Once again, read the extract above. And consider how many spy novels have been published in recent decades - Licence Renewed, which I’ve read, was published 30 years ago. <br />So, yes, editors should be knowledgeable about the genres they work in. But they can't possibly have the same knowledge as all the readers of those genres *combined*. Editors can’t predict which authors someone might plagiarize, so to stop it in the spy genre, by your logic, they’d not just have to have read all of the novels he did steal, but also all of Peter O'Donnell, Donald Hamilton, Desmond Bagley, Alistair Maclean, Frederick Forsyth, Helen MacInnes, Dennis Wheatley, Geoffrey Jenkins, Eric Ambler, Greene, Deighton, Littell, Clancy, Morrell... and so on. Just in case. Thousands of novels. And if you'd read all of those novels, you’d then have to remember them to spot it.<br />So I think there was always a good chance that once the book was published he'd get caught, because in the sea of knowledge among readers *someone* was likely to spot it. He could have been unlucky early on, and I could have happened to have realized a particular scene felt too familiar and looked it up, or his agent or editor could have happened to be very familiar with one of these novels or essays. But it's not their fault - or mine - that it didn't happen that way. I've read tons of spy novels, but I haven't read and memorized hundreds of them, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect editors or indeed anyone else to have done. This is hindsight, and in some cases schadenfreude: I've seen plenty of comments online about how amusing it is to see a publisher get egg on their faces. <br /><br />Sorry if this seems heavy-handed, but I'm bored of seeing this argument pop up everywhere. It's not the publishers' fault that they failed to spot lifts from the thousands of books previously published in the genre. It's just Quentin Rowan's fault.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-69697704548686392102011-11-30T20:45:55.972+01:002011-11-30T20:45:55.972+01:00What I mean is that I think Rowan is tangential to...What I mean is that I think Rowan is tangential to larger issues. It doesn't strike me that publishers handle very well the stuff that comes out by accident. I could be totally wrong, but that is my perception.<br /><br />In answer to your question; no, I would not have found any of it without a reason to look. (So long as these things remain unseen, then no problem.)<br /><br />Frankly, I hope that he keeps writing and has success. That is what pseudonyms and second chances are for. I'm not inclined to parse whether his current conduct is self-serving or sincere. Don't know, don't care. It will make a great movie, though.<br /><br />D_BlackwellAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-79083583456837858712011-11-30T20:20:57.428+01:002011-11-30T20:20:57.428+01:00Jeremy, I said "SOME of the plagiarism might ...Jeremy, I said "SOME of the plagiarism might have been all but impossible to detect." Much of it could have been fairly easy to detect; it was discovered by knowledgeable fans within days. Shouldn't editors know as much about the genre they have been editing as their customers? Actually, the technology that has facilitated the digital detectives posting here is almost what the publishers need. In fact, I would predict that it will be less than a year before there is special fraud-detection software tailored to the needs of the publishing industry. From a software engineering and retrieval standpoint, the problem is simplified for genre books--where it is probably most needed. Apparently, publishing houses have been willing to spend big bucks for lawyers to do CYA duty and for software that optimizes marketing, inventory, and supply-chain management, but not for ensuring the basic quality of their products.<br /><br />Mind you, I am not blaming publishers--I did say responsible "in part"--but I am not absolving them either.<br /><br />The Wadell case is interesting from another standpoint, because she appears to have plagiarized from one genre to publish in another, what law enforcement refers to as "artful concealment," which constitutes a prima facie case for intent. Not to defend his action, but Rowan was not as devious and may even have wanted to be caught--he had stretched his bungee cord about as far as it would go without breaking.<br /><br />The publishers might be ethically responsible for what is called "due diligence," but are probably not legally responsible because Rowan and Waddell probably signed standard contracts indemnifying the publisher for any copyright violation and making them libel for defense costs if found in violation.<br /><br />Does that explain better where I am coming from?<br /><br />--Larry Constantine (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lior-Samson/e/B004KDPO9A/" rel="nofollow">Lior Samson</a>)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244119294993819031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-32566280758844365512011-11-30T19:31:50.182+01:002011-11-30T19:31:50.182+01:00'I think it is right to hold publishers respon...'I think it is right to hold publishers responsible in part, even if some of the plagiarism might have been all but impossible to detect in advance.'<br /><br />Hi Larry, please explain! :) If it's all but impossible to detect - and look at the case of Patricia Waddell, who plagiarized Robert Ludlum and Ken Follett, and who no *reader* has detected in five years - why are publishers responsible? I think they are legally responsible for it, but I don't see how they are to blame for this. The plagiarists are.<br /><br />When publishers are informed of plagiarism and refuse to act on it, then I fully agree that they take some of the blame.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-50381204823665193202011-11-30T17:54:56.263+01:002011-11-30T17:54:56.263+01:00D_Blackwell, healthy skepticism is in order, and i...D_Blackwell, healthy skepticism is in order, and it may be a long time before most people will take Quentin Rowan at his word, if ever again. However, having worked with users and recovering addicts, I am inclined toward the more charitable interpretation, particularly regarding where he is writing. In my experience, the hardest people to fool with self-serving b.s. are in AA and in recovery themselves. Only time will tell, of course, but I hope he keeps writing and learns to write with his own words.<br /><br />And Jeremy, I think it is right to hold publishers responsible in part, even if some of the plagiarism might have been all but impossible to detect in advance. On the other hand, I find myself wondering if there is not more of this these days, even if the phenomenon has always been with us. The very technology that made the detective work possible facilitates the deception as well. And, as a professor, I certainly find the current generation's notion of acceptable copying far more "liberal" than a generation or two ago.<br /><br />--Larry Constantine (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lior-Samson/e/B004KDPO9A/" rel="nofollow">Lior Samson</a>)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244119294993819031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-83274587700156378992011-11-30T17:14:43.482+01:002011-11-30T17:14:43.482+01:00Possibly. But reread my post above, especially the...Possibly. But reread my post above, especially the excerpt from Assasin of Secrets starting 'With a shout...' Would you have spotted that that was plagiarized, really? I've read a *lot* of spy novels and didn't spot it. I've even read some of the novels Rowan plagiarized. Editors, agents, etc can't be expected to have read and memorized thousands of novels in a genre to spot this sort of thing. And it really is thousands. In hindsight, very easy to say they all should have read all of Charles McCarry's work and recognieed it at once, but they couldn't have predicted he would plagiarize him, or John Gardner or any of the others, rather than any of several dozen other writers. True Deception was published in 2007, and seems to have been constructed in much the same was as Assassin of Secrets, but it's not just the publisher who missed it - so did readers. It's only this case that has accidentally kicked it up.<br /><br />So I don't really agree that there's much to say here about the standards and practices of publishers. I think it's an argument for introducing plagiarism detection software, but there may be reasons that is impractical and it may not catch everything. I suggest resisting the temptation to rub our hands with glee at the publishers being caught out - perhaps I would say that, as I was as well! - and instead just admit the rather more banal truth, which is that the blame really only rests with the plagiarists.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-21744827198530275692011-11-30T17:06:02.034+01:002011-11-30T17:06:02.034+01:00Thanks for the link. Of course, only a very few p...Thanks for the link. Of course, only a very few people, at most, will ever know what parts of it all are true, be able to separate the self-serving from the sincere. It will make a good movie though.<br /><br />More complex, if less captivating, the bigger story is in the standards and practices of publishers.<br /><br />D_BlackwellAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-91054605236455836552011-11-30T15:35:33.885+01:002011-11-30T15:35:33.885+01:00With the focus on documenting all the plagiarism w...With the focus on documenting all the plagiarism we may have lost sight of the person. Over at <a href="http://www.thefix.com/content/confessions-plagiarist-Quentin-rowan9278" rel="nofollow">The Fix</a>, Quentin Rowan has come clean with more of the story of his struggles with addiction--to alcohol, drugs, and theft of words. Anyone who has been there will identify with his downfall. In the perspective of AA, he seems to have hit bottom and now can begin the slow, lifelong climb out. We should all wish him well in his sobriety.<br /><br />--Larry Constantine (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lior-Samson/e/B004KDPO9A/" rel="nofollow">Lior Samson</a>)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244119294993819031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-31467637385339793682011-11-29T06:45:16.562+01:002011-11-29T06:45:16.562+01:00Darren - I've put together a document that cov...Darren - I've put together a document that covers about half of the pages for which you haven't found lifts yet. Specifics are noted in the file:<br /><br />http://dbwebdesign.com/assassin-clips-b.pdf<br /><br />Regarding "Death is Forever", "No Deals, Mr. Bond", and "Doubleshot"<br /><br />Page 8, compare with - "Doubleshot"<br />She looked up at him, her mouth parted. Her lower lip trembled a bit, and he could feel her shaking. Bond brought his mouth down on hers and roughly held her against him. She submitted with a soft moan, then opened her mouth to receive<br /><br />Page 57, compare with - "Death Is Forever"<br />had run every kind of operation in the book, from dangles to false flags, deceptions and even the odd honey- trap. Its history was the history of the Cold War<br /><br />Page 71, compare with - "Death Is Forever"<br />came face to face with death at exactly 4:12 pm on a chilly October Thursday outside the Frankfurter Hof Hotel in the heart of Frankfurt. In the last split second of his life, Puxley knew the<br /><br />Page 93, compare with - "No Deals, Mr. Bond"<br />Neon and paper signs hung drunkenly at angles, sprouting to catch the eye, while the omnipresent food produced an amalgam of smells.<br /><br />Page 118, compare with - "No Deals, Mr. Bond"<br />He did it the textbook way, leaving just enough time to be certain his targets were not friendly policemen — who were liable to be unfriendly if they thought he was some criminal intruder. By no stretch of the imagination were these men<br /><br />Page 119, compare with - "No Deals, Mr. Bond"<br />A huge piece of the doorjamb woodwork, to his left, disintegrated, leaving, a large hole and sending splinters flying. The second shot passed between Bond and the jamb. He felt the crack of the bullet as it cut the air near his head<br /><br />Page 170, compare with - "Doubleshot"<br />assuming a normal stride behind his prey as he headed for the latrine. When Clayton went in, Bond followed him. The man went into the smelly stall. Bond reached down and unsheathed the commando knife<br /><br />Page 173, compare with - "Doubleshot"<br />Bond kicked, swinging his foot in the shape of a crescent moon. There was a discernable crack as he connected with Rodney's jaw. The man screamed and fell to the ground. Bond leaped over him and kept running.<br /><br />Page 179, compare with - "Doubleshot"<br />ran to him and dragged him across to the side of the road. Bond was woozy, unable to fight back. He felt his shirtsleeve being unbuttoned and rolled over. There was the prick of a needle, and in a moment he<br />................................<br /><br />There are probably more, but that's what I picked up in a pass through the notes.<br />................................<br /><br />Regarding the Silva lift, I got a modest but clear hit on a search. Because it was a new author and text, I wanted something more and was able to access a good chunk of the text; everything in the relevant section. It took a couple of minutes, but once I realized that he was converting dialog to narrative all was immediately clear.<br />................................<br /><br />Sorry again about not having the Clancy lift quite right. I was catching part of that (that he may be more of a brand than a writer on that) even as Jeremy was clarifying.<br /><br />The Benson part is very interesting. That's worth looking at some more also.<br /><br />D_BlackwellAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-74354614447528240532011-11-29T03:22:44.337+01:002011-11-29T03:22:44.337+01:00Blackwell, I haven't yet looked at your pdf, b...Blackwell, I haven't yet looked at your pdf, but wanted to quickly comment on recycling.<br /><br />This quote: "The white sheet of ocean spray burst up from the coral reef and appeared suspended, the dark blue waters of the Caribbean serving as a backdrop."<br /> - Robert Ludlum<br /><br />This (along with a couple of adjoining lines) appear in his The Bourne Ultimatum and *twice* in The Cry of the Halidon - the very first sentence of the book and later in chpt 35. I hadn't set out to find examples of recycling, but noticed this phrase repeated while looking for something else.<br /><br />Don't know if you have these yet, but: pp. 9 - the entire paragraph, "With a shout {...}" is Benson's Zer Minus Ten. So is the last paragraph, starting "She was on top now {...} but it was too late".<br /><br />pp. 9 - "He kept on, though, lunging {...} glimpsed the blond woman's eyes." - this is McCarry's Second Sight.<br /><br />pp. 30 - the entire page is Murphy's & Sapir's Destroyer #1 (actually begins pp. 29 "Brewster had worked out a plan {...}" until pp. 31 "{...'Ever think of joining CIA?'"<br /><br />Best,<br />DarrenDarren Heilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073980744606788235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-86943695869848471612011-11-28T23:39:44.583+01:002011-11-28T23:39:44.583+01:00"Benson wrote that Splinter Cell novel under ..."Benson wrote that Splinter Cell novel under the pseudonym David Michaels."<br /><br />Benson. That's interesting. So it's a recycling? What's old is new again? I wonder how much?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-24549459171813580362011-11-28T23:37:35.315+01:002011-11-28T23:37:35.315+01:00Criminy. I went to see about buying a copy of Cla...Criminy. I went to see about buying a copy of Clancy's "Splinter Cell" and I see that byline credit goes to David Michaels, which seems to itself be a pseudonym used for the series. That doesn't change much; Clancy's name takes up half the cover and it's a very well known series. Still, it's a correction that I need to note.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-63629572053991739962011-11-28T23:32:33.819+01:002011-11-28T23:32:33.819+01:00Before we go any further down that road, Benson wr...Before we go any further down that road, Benson wrote that Splinter Cell novel under the pseudonym David Michaels.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-45550774319821189002011-11-28T23:27:19.229+01:002011-11-28T23:27:19.229+01:00Darren (and everybody else) -
Wow! Just f...ing...Darren (and everybody else) - <br /><br />Wow! Just f...ing Wow!<br /><br />I way over-promised when suggesting that I would fill in the pages where you haven't found lifted content yet. I'm remembering why I started this project not with a complete, annotated transcription, but with extensive note-taking instead.<br /><br />The job is enormous. Getting a grasp of what is happening is a pretty big job; properly documenting it is something else.<br /><br />I will have to switch to putting together notes for the pages that you need, rather than a full accounting.<br /><br />I did a full accounting for one page, 39, and, well, Wow! The entire page is from Raymond Benson's "High Time to Kill". All of it. The lift rolls right into page 40.<br /><br />I've put this page in a PDF to make it easier to deal with. Plus, I can color-code and do whatever formatting I might want later. I looked over the work pretty well, but it should be double-checked. I am distracted with not jut the obvious things, but with a new big thing.<br /><br />http://dbwebdesign.com/assassin-darren.pdf<br /><br />The new big thing is Tom Clancy's "Splinter Cell".<br /><br />My search for "ornamental gables, gilded facades" brings up only Benson and Clancy. There is much more than the four word phrase, which could be coincidental, or even acceptable as simply a borrowed word pairing.<br /><br /><br />From the same section of Benson's text (see linked PDF), is a substantial word-for-word lift and further description that is really close to Benson's.<br /><br />Word-for-word:<br />"display of ornamental gables, gilded facades, medieval banners, and gold-filigreed rooftop sculptures."<br /><br />Lenore Hart would likely argue that if you are writing from a similar genre and describing very specific places, times, or events - that authors will naturally come up with very similar texts. Perhaps. I think that there is valid discussion to be had there.<br /><br />On the other hand, looking at just that paragraph or so from Clancy and putting it next to Benson - it doesn't look too good for him. I would need more before I knifed a guy's integrity, but it may not be too soon to start sharpening the knife. I think it's worth taking a closer look at his works. Pattern is proof.<br /><br />D_BlackwellAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-61428286319121951132011-11-28T17:31:58.805+01:002011-11-28T17:31:58.805+01:00Correction - except pages: 5, 9, 30, 54, 55, 183, ...Correction - except pages: 5, 9, 30, 54, 55, 183, 273Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-82882562484086783352011-11-28T17:25:09.072+01:002011-11-28T17:25:09.072+01:00Darrren -
I will put together a file that addres...Darrren - <br /><br />I will put together a file that addresses your last post. Probably later today. It won't be manageable as a post, so what I'll do is post it on one of my domains and link to it from here. It won't be complete, as I don't have all of the texts, nor do I know where the lifts are in many of the texts in order to get a complete picture. As unhappy as I have been with Google the last couple of years, I admit that Google Books made the searching possible. My post/link will begin to fill in the pages where you haven't found lifts yet.<br /><br />I haven't begun a transcription of the text-plus-annotations yet. It's been a pretty big job just sketching out the big picture.<br /><br />I finished the page-by-page pass last evening, and have burned several packs of Post-Its. I found notable lifts on Every Single Page except: 4, 9, 30, 54, 55, 183, 273. I was disappointed to find only a very minor lift on 188. I would have had to give that one a pass - the occasional borrowed phrase doesn't bother me - but it was not from a random text so it has to count in this case.<br /><br />A lot of this would have gone undetected, but the more we/I found, the more I knew that I would find. On most pages it only took a search or two to find something. If I couldn't find something, I looked harder knowing that it had to be there.<br /><br />Given that it appears publishers aren't even looking for plagiarism, I expect that there is quite a lot to be found. Cheating is rampant at the educational level. Do we really think that people get more ethical later on? In a climate where anything less than a 3.9 GPA is unacceptable, many people learn how to cheat out of 'necessity'. They get pretty good at it.<br /><br />What I'm finding most interesting at the moment is that although Rowan's publisher killed the book, I haven't heard a peep out of them otherwise. What about Lenore Hart's publisher? What about the publishers of the other cases that have recently surfaced? Maybe I've just missed it, but it feels deathly quiet. Are they all responding by slinking away?<br /><br />D_BlackwellAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623365327046775227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-16000823837654492872011-11-28T07:12:47.054+01:002011-11-28T07:12:47.054+01:00I finished going through the Markham book & di...I finished going through the Markham book & didn't find any more than what's already been listed.<br /><br />However, Blackwell, bravo to you. You found lifts on pages I wasn't able to. I don't have my physical library at hand right now, so I'm unable to find the passages from Gardner's Death Is Forever and No Deal, Mr. Bond, or Benson's Doubleshot. Might you let me know where at in the book they can be found? How did you locate the Silva passages?<br /><br />Except for a couple sentences here & there, I wasn't able to find lifts on pp. 5, 19, 39-47, 50-70, 75, 77, 80, 89-90, 103, 107-27, 129-31, 134, 144-45, 170, 183-84, 186-98, 201, 203-08, 212-19, 255, 265-66, 269, 273-78 (last page).<br /><br />I had some fun identifying Rowen's lifts, but I do hope it's an anomaly - I hope it's not required for future books I'd like to read & enjoy. That said, I plan to go through already published books, probably starting with Ludlum (he seems to be a favorite among plagiarists) and seeing if I can't find other copycats. Condon's Manchurian Candidateborrowing from I. Claudius, I just read about.<br /><br />If I come across anything new, I'll let ya'all know. Thanks, Jeremy and the rest of you for all your posts.<br /><br />Best,<br />DarrenDarren Heilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073980744606788235noreply@blogger.com