tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post7187735051168440276..comments2013-04-28T14:44:48.079+02:00Comments on JEREMY DUNS: Bourne YesterdayUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-92218621887663726332010-06-21T21:58:05.276+02:002010-06-21T21:58:05.276+02:00Yes, it's something I struggle with writing my...Yes, it's something I struggle with writing my own stuff. On the one hand, I don't want to be influenced by anyone else's stories too closely so I'd rather not read them. But then, so much has been done that if you're not familiar with the rest of the genre readers who are will just roll their eyes and say 'Oh, how dull - that old plot device again!' So you need to have a healthy awareness of what has gone before, I think, but also not hold it too closely and be willing to break out of the mould.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-19201614437983539092010-06-21T21:39:36.389+02:002010-06-21T21:39:36.389+02:00Yes, stands to reason that they were well read in ...Yes, stands to reason that they were well read in their chosen field I guess. The amount of research that I imagine goes into spy fiction, well a writer has no choice but to check each others books out. They seemed to be quite free to share each others ideas around and let each other expand on it. I am thinking about Wheatley and Fleming also which I learned from your article http://www.spywise.net/pdf/wheatley_spywise_final.pdfNick Meadowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03328019045417555028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-33335217934452984702010-06-21T21:16:02.835+02:002010-06-21T21:16:02.835+02:00Thanks, Nicholas! Yes, this has been nagging away ...Thanks, Nicholas! Yes, this has been nagging away at me for a while. I was surprised to also find two thrillers prior to You Only Live Twice featuring secret agents losing their memory, especially as Fleming knew one of the writers.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-52211185733100182142010-06-21T21:13:17.188+02:002010-06-21T21:13:17.188+02:00Intresting how these things can be under your nose...Intresting how these things can be under your nose but you never make the connection. I am a fan of Fleming and Ludlum and just never gave it a thought. Paul Dark's debut was a healthy mix of Bond and Bourne.Nick Meadowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03328019045417555028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-1325130115516122962010-06-17T18:19:11.409+02:002010-06-17T18:19:11.409+02:00A book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of W...A book of Verses underneath the Bough, <br />A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread--and Thou <br />Beside Me singing in the Wilderness--<br />Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!Matthew Blanchettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03829163626544348823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-50052931532794585402010-06-16T09:16:41.435+02:002010-06-16T09:16:41.435+02:00I have read it, Matthew, albeit a long time ago. I...I have read it, Matthew, albeit a long time ago. Interesting idea. I love it as a one-time pad, as well.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-69416129707115433382010-06-16T01:57:25.039+02:002010-06-16T01:57:25.039+02:00As an addendum, have you read the Rubaiyat beforeh...As an addendum, have you read the Rubaiyat beforehand, Jeremy? A verse or two from it might make a nice epigram for one of your books...Matthew Blanchettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03829163626544348823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-9499223984164244962010-06-15T23:10:26.641+02:002010-06-15T23:10:26.641+02:00:P I'm not stuck! Nearly there. But yes, it is...:P I'm not stuck! Nearly there. But yes, it is fascinating.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-55077644174300317902010-06-15T22:44:49.744+02:002010-06-15T22:44:49.744+02:00Thought you'd like the Taman Shud Case; you co...Thought you'd like the Taman Shud Case; you could almost incorporate aspects of it into a certain thriller you're stuck on... ;-)Matthew Blanchettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03829163626544348823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-84243726897666922512010-06-15T09:44:34.078+02:002010-06-15T09:44:34.078+02:00Thanks, David. I highly recommend both Drink to Ye...Thanks, David. I highly recommend both Drink to Yesterday and Pray Silence. The first is rather darker, and seems to have been based on real events, while Pray Silence is more of a cat-and-mouse romp, but both are beautifully done.<br /><br />Matthew, I've never heard of that case - absolutely fascinating stuff! I obviously see things in a certain light, because as soon as I saw the photo I thought he was a Russian, and as soon as I saw that he had no labels on his clothing presumed he was a Soviet agent. Also that the Rubaiyat was a one-time pad. Beyond that... who knows! Very interesting.<br /><br />As to there being a modern originator of 'that plot occurrence', yes, I suspect there must be one for both Coles and Wheatley to have published thrillers within a few months of each other featuring a secret agent with amnesia. Working back, I think there are just too many similarities between The Bourne Identity set-up and You Only Live Twice for that to be coincidence: JAson BOurne, his statement on discovering his identity echoing the famous film line, Ludlum being a Fleming fan, his being rescued from the sea. So I doubt Ludlum was working from something earlier. Fleming might have been working from something from the 19th century with the You Only Live Twice scene, but I don't think so. If it were just 'hero gets amnesia', yes, but there are eight very specific correspondences between what happens in You Only Live Twice and Faked Passports and Pray Silence. On top of that, both of those were major best-sellers by British thriller-writers. Pray Silence was one of the most famous novels of the war, and Faked Passports part of a hugely successful series that influence Fleming in lots of very specific ways. Fleming also <i>knew</i> Dennis Wheatley. So I'm pretty sure they must have been Fleming's source. <br /><br />But yes, what was <i>their</i> source? The fact that they both published in 1940 suggests to me the trigger for them both must have been in 1938 or 1939. Either another story, or perhaps a mysterious news item like the Taman Shud Case. Just a line in an article in The Times might have done it: 'There is speculation that the man may have been working for an intelligence agency, but he has total amnesia...' I've looked at both these possibilities. If anyone can find a news story, book, play or film predating 1940 that features a secret agent losing their memory while on a mission (especially if they plunge into the sea and are presumed dead by their colleagues!) I'd love to hear of it, of course. I couldn't find anything that seemed likely to have triggered the similarity in Pray Silence and Faked Passports, but I think something must have inspired both for them to have appeared so close together in time.Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-21534774614673130212010-06-15T03:09:54.643+02:002010-06-15T03:09:54.643+02:00It's obviously not a coincidence, but there ha...It's obviously not a coincidence, but there <i>has</i> to be some sort of modern originator of that plot occurrence; presumably, either in the late 19th or early 20th century...<br /><br />By the way, Jeremy, have you ever heard of the Taman Shud Case? If not, should interest you: <a rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taman_Shud_Case</a>Matthew Blanchettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03829163626544348823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-67022191311940946842010-06-15T00:13:17.283+02:002010-06-15T00:13:17.283+02:00Fantastic article Jeremy. I have some Manning Cole...Fantastic article Jeremy. I have some Manning Coles in the endless stack of books in the 'to read' pile. I may now have to move them to the top of the pile.<br /><br />I don't have any Wheatley, which I think is about time I rectified.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07948368009550868974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-10976595198057401262010-06-14T11:36:32.384+02:002010-06-14T11:36:32.384+02:00Hi John, thanks for the comment, but as I say in t...Hi John, thanks for the comment, but as I say in the piece I think this is about more than the hero losing his memory (or forgetting how to make love), which has been done hundreds of times, but a much more specific plot idea that is made up of several components. The plot concept in question here is not a hero having a spell cast on them to lose their memory, or a detective losing his memory, or a secret agent losing their memory while on vacation, or a secret agent losing thieir memory falling off a horse, all of which would be valid plots. It's a secret agent on a foreign mission being hit on the head, falling into the sea, scrambling ashore, finding he has amnesia, and then having to figure out who he is, while he is presumed dead by his colleagues. Do you really think the similarities between what happens to JAson BOurne in The Bourne Identity and JAmes BOnd in You Only Live Twice are just coincidence? <br /><br />Well, if you can't see it from the article, I'm not sure there's much I could say that would convince you!Jeremy Dunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442728222534667107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138728502354978457.post-45674553860293378512010-06-14T06:06:16.207+02:002010-06-14T06:06:16.207+02:00Hey! The 'hero gets amnesia and forgets the im...Hey! The 'hero gets amnesia and forgets the important things he is supposed to be doing, including 'the act of love'' plot concept goes back to the 1st century BCE. <br /><br />C.f. the plot of Shakuntalaa:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhijñānaśākuntalam#SynopsisJohn Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02749153293336581947noreply@blogger.com